DaySailer.org Forum

Maybe I'm just got use to my old Hobie Cat - it pointed so well, you could almost sail into the wind <grin>

Seriously - we had a heck of a time getting close to the wind. It almost seemed that I could not do better that about 45 degrees. To put in other words, when I tacked, I seemed to be going almost 90 degrees to where I was before the tack - maybe not that bad - but it was not what I expecting.

So, two questions:
a) How close the wind should I expect to get?
b) How can I / do I adjust the rigging to point better? Rake mast forward / rearward?

Thanks to you all for your help!

Wayne

You didn’t mention what type of wind you were experiencing ? My DSI points close to 20 degrees and sometimes closer. Make sure your keel and rudder are completely down and your jib handling is quick and not to tight when tacking. I found it is best to make sure the jib is loose enough to let the air out until I have completed the tack. Otherwise it can pull you away from your intended direction. Brad

I guess I wasn't clear. Making the tack is not a problem... it's setting the sails and pointing into the wind that is at issue. It seems that when I get too close to the wind, the main sail starts to loose shape.

We were sailing in 6-10 knot winds.

So, how long has it been since you've sailed your Hobie cat? I'm guessing that your recollections are a bit optimistic. A 90° tack is about average for a sailboat, including a Hobie. Or possibly you can do better than this world champion? Check the diagram at the bottom of this document. http://www.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/ih ... ing_16.pdf

I have sailed next to good catamaran sailors and they might be able to out point me a little bit but not that much. Of course, they're going a lot faster and that might be your perceived difference.

I've had mixed experience with tacking angles. I recently measured the difference between compass bearings betwen tacks.

The best I've measured were about 105 degrees. The worst were 125-145 degrees (two days later). All of these measurements were on tidal waters with tidal currents (or better tidal eddies) a possible and unpredictable effect. On both days the winds were very steady and did not show as many gusts and windshifts as usual.

A while back, on a local lake, I was sailing in a group of hobies that were proceeding leisurely towads the same destination I was (not racing) and, I could have sworn, where sailing straight upwind while I was tacking - there was at least a 45 degree angle between our courses.

Is it me, or is the DS? But I don't think I've never seen anything close to the 90 degrees that K.C. mentions.

On some lakes, I've noticed, the winds will curve due to shore effects in a way that makes tacking away from the shore very inefficient - not only is there a tacking angle, but the tacks curve as well.

http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?n ... me=Printer They go faster but generally don't out point a monohull, scroll down to pointing.

The quality of the centerboard and rudder make a big difference. Stock Day Sailer boards can be notoriously bad. Sails also matter. Having a good traveler makes a big difference, and setting up jib barber haulers helps.

I'm able to point at about 45 pretty consistently. This is to the upwind destination, not to the apparent wind.

Catamarans don't point nearly as well as monohulls. They make up for it in that they have a lot more speed.

Since I had a nice afternoon with 4-6kt winds, I took my DS out to a local lake and played around a bit.

I made sure my jib-sheets were set up to the specification from the sail maker, including location and length of barber haulers.

Then I used a compass to find tacking angles, I may have come close to the 90 degree mark this time, but it could have been closer to 100 degrees - I could only read the big numbers on the compass so +- 5 degrees error simply from reading the dial.

The actual course would have been a bit poorer, because of leeway.

BTW, this time, I simply set the jib to what looked like good trim (likewise for the main) and then sailed close to the point where the jib stopped luffing. That seemed to give me the best angles.

Oh, I have no traveler and stock rudder and centerboard. The latter in questionable shape (haven't had a look at it in years )

Wayne: I still don't know why my experience that day sailing next to the catamarans was so much worse. The winds were a bit higher, 6-8kt, instead of 6 going on 4. And I had crew. And I was comparing course to course, not compass angles. But, anyway, I suggest you try some measurements.

[Edit: I since learned that the lake is notorious for bending winds. I may not have been close enough to have the same wind as those catamarans. It can be a weird feeling to be sailing "close" to some other boat that seems to sail in winds shifted by 45°. Can't be sure that was the explanation, but with hindsight, it seems probable.]

How new is your Jib? When you were sailing up wind how much negative force did you feel on the rudder? Are you fighting the rudder? Were you sitting on the rail or on seat? Also do you remember how "close hauled" your Main was? Have you ever had your boat weighed?

Do you happen to have "Nancy Haulers" installed? These are sometimes also called Barber Haulers. They will pull the sail in closer to the center line, and allow you to point higher. They are usually run from the top of the cuddy cabin. If you are just running your jib sheets direct to the Gunn'el you will not be able to point nearly as high. There are several different ways to set them up, and I think there are some pictures in the photos section, but I wouldn't swear to it.

On barber haulers. (For those who don't know what that is: it's a line ending in a block. The jib sheet goes through the block and you pull the line sideways, so that the middle of the jib sheet gets pulled in closer to the center line, hauling the clew of the jib in).

When I got my new jib (two years ago), the sailmaker sent me these instructions:

Position jib blocks on coaming (or gunwales), 107" from forestay. Attach cleats for barber haulers 5" from the center line on cuddy face. Extend them to 17" for winds between 6-12 knots, 30" for lighter winds, less than 5knt and 18" to 30" for really high winds ( >12kt).

With my previous jib, I had problems to keep its leech from fluttering in high winds. One day, I jury rigged a barber hauler (just a loop of line around the jib sheet and cleated off on one of the cleats on top of the cuddy). The effect was immediate and since then, I'm sold on Barber haulers. (Those of you who don't have them, you can try this jury-rig and see for yourselves).



If you click on the picture, you can see the cleats for the barber haulers. They end in the lightest, cheapest blocks I could find that would fit my jib-sheets (I think they were Laser parts) and I connected them with an eye-splice. I gave them a wrap with rigging tape, so they don't bang the deck during tacks.

In light to medium airs I have slight weather helm. In the light winds of my last test, I was sitting on the seat (solo). In the earlier tests, I had crew (more than doubled the total human ballast, so we sat on the seats).
(And no, I never had my boat weighed).

Wayne: what's your setup, weight etc.? Have you sailed since?

Wow... so many ideas - thanks!

First, I've not been out since my post - so no new news.

I have what I believe to be a mostly stock boat with OK replacement sails (not sail number - just DS letters on the main). My rudder is OK (it did creep up a few times - I guess I some tightening todo - not sure about the center board - I've not looked at it as yet.

I have a DS II with the jib cleats on a track in their standard location.

I was NOT fighting the tiller. I'm trying to remember what happened the few times I let go of it. I think we turned into the wind.

We had light wind and the boat seemed to be rather level. Regarding weight - probably around 420 pounds above and beyond the boat and its rigging

I guess, based on your replies, that if I indeed point about 45 degrees into the wind, we were doing OK.

I hope this answers everyones questions - thanks again for your help.

Wayne

There are at least 3 ways you can measure angles.
1) between the boat's heading and the wind as experienced from the boat (apparent wind)
2) between the boat's heading and the true wind direction
3) actual angle of the boat's course relative to true wind

These will give three different answers.

I measured the 2nd, by subtracting the compass headings on successive tacks. I believe that is the angle that should get to about 90 degrees and it can be determined independent of the wind speed and the boat speed. (But different sailing conditions might give you different answers).

The angle of the apparent wind depends on the relative magnitude and direction between boat speed and wind speed. It's therefore tricky to relate measurements of (1) to actual courses over ground.

For (3) the effects of current and leeway (sideways drift) matter. To measure this quickly, you'd need a GPS, or a nearby shore that allows you to take convenient compass bearings between points where you tacked.

Ultimately, whether you round the headland or the mark, only the angle according to (3) matters, but to just fine tune your sailing, measuring angles according to method (2) should be fine.

Just don't expect to make tracks through the water that have 90 degree turns at the tack.