Cracked cuddy floor

[hectoretc]

As part of a branching discussion I had started to talk about my cracked cuddy floor in the tabernacle post but realized I was driving it further and further from it's original scope so I'll start a new post here.

As mentioned in that post, my DSII had a pretty severe crack in the cuddy floor when I acquired it.



Using a rotary tool, I have since cut away the jagged edges and the flap more or less levels out again. I was going to use this crack as an excuse to copycat jdoorly's battery box idea, cutting away the whole cuddy floor in this section and replacing it with a battery box mounted low, and then a waterproofed plywood floor, but when I got into it I realized how close the crack comes to the centerboard housing. I wouldn't be able to retain a lip to seal against, so now I'm wondering if I shouldn't try to keep as much of the floor intact as possible, and build up that edge with some layers of fiberglass. I'd welcome any suggestions or opinions on the best way to approach this repair.
Thanks,

[GreenLake]

I know you've read far and wide on this site, so you probably have come across several links to the West System manual on fiberglass repair (or can located it via internet search).

Assuming that you have read this, you'd know how to repair "standard" cracks in fiberglass.

The problem here is that you don't know what caused these cracks and therefore you don't know whether the original laminate was a bit underdimensioned or whether it's weakened. In either case, you'd want to reinforce it, but adding lots of layers on top may make an unsightly (since highly visible) repair.

If there was a way to work from the underside of the floor it would be easy. But, there isn't.

Here's an idea to start you thinking. The crack, being L shaped, is well suited to slip a rigid reinforcement plate underneath, especially after you've ground away the overlapping laminate. If you have an inspection port nearby, and some sort of inflatable bladder, it would be a snap to glue that in place from below (You would need very little pressure). It would be a variation of the crack repair I documented (see my photo gallery).

(If you don't have such a port, there are ways to pull the plate up with wires or screws. You may need to drill some smaller holes for the purpose.)

After you've glued in the plate, you'd fill the cracks using the standard technique.

You may then want to finish it by adding one additional layer of glass cloth from the top so you'd have something that reinforces the connection to the vertical. With care, you should be able to fair that so it isn't too obvious. I would extend that layer of cloth pretty far from the location of the crack on the theory that even the apparently "good" laminate might be weakened.

[hectoretc]

Thanks GreenLake,
Excellent thoughts. Next time I get over to the boat, I'll try to see if I can get my arm or other mechnical device into that area from the cockpit access panel. I suppose barring that, I could put another (larger) access panel inside the cuddy on starboard side (the undamaged section) that would allow me to reach under this area. I was really suprised when I cut out the jagged edges and could see into the space under the panel how deep the bilge is at that point. I now see how jdoorly could put his battery box in that area and still it only protrudes a little above the cuddy floor.
Would you think I would want to put a block (as in wood) or other firm material (high density foam between the outer hull and cuddy floor under this repair to support it, or do you think that would somehow potentially compromise the outer hull in that area (unexpected stress from weight on the repair area, etc.)?
Thanks again for the input.

[GreenLake]

Inspection ports are always nice, in this case, if close, they might allow you to add a tab (bit of glass tape) underneath the floor in spaces where floor meets vertical. Reinforcing those corners would seem useful given where your damage is located. Those tabs would have to be applied "wet" but I'd still use a fixed plate for the main repair (it's too messy to try wet layup on the underside).

Wood in the bilge usually is a recipe for rot. If you did your repair with sufficient strength, I don't think you'd need additional support. If you disagree, I'd use a bit of the blue or pink styrofoam from house insulation and wedge it in there - that would give some support, won't rot, and limit the flex of the floor. A 6"x6" piece in the middle of the floor should be enough.

Alternative, but more work, would be to lay up a U-channel over 1/2 paper towel tube, with 2" horizontal flanges. (On a flat piece of wax paper on your work bench). If you keep it short/narrow enough that you can get it through the inspection port after it has cured, you could then glue the flanges to the floor and it would stiffen things up nicely.

[hectoretc]

This picture covers 1/2 dozen topics but attempting not to confuse, I'll focus on one at a time.



This is a shot inside my cuddy, notice both the high water mark on the forward bulkhead, and the brown fiberglass repair (sort of) seam forward of the mast.
The stain didn't show this well until I took a photo in low light, but it pretty much confirms my thinking that this boat spent a fair amount of time sitting on the bottom swamped in water of some sort.
The repair shown is very simply fiberglass cloth laid over the crack and then resin poured over it (or appears to be anyway). When I press on the seam, there is flex in the repair so I'm going to want to re-repair it. I didn't realize how bad it was till I was up on an elbow trying to reach into the forward bulkhead to pull out insulation. This is a seperate crack from the one previously mentioned in this thread.
I guess it's a good thing it's off season here... I think I'm going to need the entire winter to put humpty-dumpty back together again. (Maybe that's what I should name this boat..."Humpty-Dumpty" but I do like Breaking Wind...)

[GreenLake]

The crack looks like it could have been caused by ice - what do you think? Hard to imagine getting too much weight into that location, but if ice formed that could have pushed the bulkhead forward to crack the laminate.

In that case, the question I would have is whether only the repaired area is flexing, or whether there are larger sections of the floor that are "soft" (which would indicate weakened or failed laminate).

It could be that you're best off simply adding a layer of cloth from wall to wall and from bulkhead to past that angular crack you showed us. (After sanding flat the brown repair, and beveling and re-laminating the angled crack).

The result should be sufficiently strong and would minimize the trickiness of the repair, but at the expense of some weight (luckily forward and low).

It would be somewhat visible, and, unless you were to use SB-112 from SystemThree, you would need to paint your floors afterwards rather than applying GelCoat. (With SB-112 you could even gelcoat your repair, it's an epoxy formulated to allow that.)

[hectoretc]

Thanks GL
Yeah, I'm nearly certain about the ice. In an earlier post I'd commented that the jagged crack between the mast and the CB housing was pushed up, so I'm thinking that works out. I've crawled around in there a lot in the past two weeks installing a new boweye, cleaning out the floation in the fore space, cutting new holes under the seats etc. and I'm somewhat impressed how strong the floor is considering that big crack. Starting just a few inches between the crack and the port hull it seems really strong, and the entire starboard side seems solid. Even that forward crack seemed like it was holding OK until as I said, I put most of my weight on my elbow right on the seam and it gave a little. I could certainly see giving the whole front end another layer, and I guess while I'm at it, it really wouldn't do any harm to do that whole floor.
I'm not concerned about the look or even texture of the cuddy floor when it's done. I'm nearly certain I'm going to do something in there to finish or cover the floor at least somewhat in some non-wood, breathing mat or something. My 3 year old grandson loves the boat and has adopted the cuddy has his "tent" so my suspicion is next summer he'll spend a lot of time in there peeking out the portholes while grandpa works on the boat tied to the dock. I think I'll need to get a couple sea miles under my keel before I'll take him out though... still a lot to learn on the water side...
Anyway, as always... thanks a ton for the analysis and insights. I can't even begin to imagine how I would figured any of this out without this group. You guys are great!

[GreenLake]

How about automotive carpet from some carpet remnant store, perhaps on top of some "hard" mat (plastic, not rubber) as used in some locker rooms. That way, you get the ventilation, and some room for small amounts of splashed water to collect. (Although, ideally, you'd want some indent in the floor to provide a low spot, otherwise the minute you heel the boat, the corner where the hull connects will get wet on the lee side).

In my DS1 I of course have the floorboards. Little guests have found them sufficient (with a floatable cushion or two) to settle in (when wearing life jackets, they don't really need cushioning for their upper backs...)

If the repair is the only soft spot, then probably the laminate failed for some distance from the actual crack. With the repair connecting the two sides, there should not be so much play, even if the repair isn't done perfectly. If you lean towards "rough & ready" then sanding flat the repair and lapping it 6-8" with a strip of cloth (or two layers, one narrower, one wider) might be all it takes.

No need then to spend money on epoxy and glass for a full coverage.

Around the CB I would be more aggressive in adding strength, because if I do understand correctly where that is, I'd expect more ongoing loads on that location.

[hectoretc]

How about automotive carpet from some carpet remnant store, perhaps on top of some "hard" mat (plastic, not rubber) as used in some locker rooms.

Hi GL - I've both made some substantial repairs on the most inside part of the cuddy floor (lots a fiberglass fabric and resin) and done some cutting on the portion closer to the cuddy hatch/door.

Your comment above about "not using" rubber for flooring. Can you expand on your thinking about that please? I purchased a box of something called "Ergo deck" at an auction (same place I got my daysailer in-fact) which claims to be 90% recycled material, but to the touch appears more like rubber than anything else.



http://www.commercialmatsandrubber.com/ ... p2102.html

My plan is/was to assemble a floor from these pieces, cutting the edges to match the shape of the hull at it's edge connection point to the cuddy floor. If I have enough left, I was thinking of doing the same in the cockpit sparing me from having to figure out how to clean the lime or calcium or whatever they are, stains off the cockpit floor. But as I said... it appears to be at least rubber like so I'm interested if there is something about rubber inherently bad against fiberglass or in sailboats in general or anything like that.

[hectoretc]

Around the CB I would be more aggressive in adding strength, because if I do understand correctly where that is, I'd expect more ongoing loads on that location.

This is a photo of the crack in my cuddy floor just inside the door/hatch/entry bulkhead, the 2nd picture being backlit by a troublelight inserted in the cockpit access port. As I evaluated the repair alongside my intend to install at least one if not two battery boxes, it eventually occurred to me that it would be easiest simply to cut out the tear to fit one of the boxes, and then cut out a matching hole on the other side for a 2nd box, which is what I ultimately did.

With these large holes open, I could easily get views beneath the floor showing the mast base, and the CB trunk etc. What I noticed mostly was other than the mast support base, and a single athwartship (sp?) stiffener just behind the mast, all of the support for the cuddy floor comes from the edge to hull attachment point. I've been able to kneel and crawl all around this space without hearing any cracks or even creaks but did notice some spring or give in certain places away from the edges and near the holes which would make sense. I used the battery box "cut-out" pieces of the floor, recut to shape, gobbed on a bunch of fiberglass strands, fabric and resin, and applied them to the underside of the cuddy floor with a number of screws to "clamp" the pieces together. I am very satisfied with the structural strength between the boxes and to the CB housing at this point, but still wonder about the remainder of the floor around the outside of the batteries to the supported edges. My thinking is that I'm going to fabricate some "support" pieces out of some waterproof material (cellular foam or other) maybe like a 2 inches thick block cut to proper lengths and angles to fit snugly between the cuddy floor and the hull around the edges of the battery boxes. This would allow me to somewhat seal those foam boxes as jdoorly did with his larger single box to retain the air chamber to the extent I can.

My question was going to be, if anyone sees a problem with adding blocks between the cuddy floor and the hull bottom, but I think in my last sentence I've just rationalized that there shouldn't be a problem adding those kinds of materials as supports in those locations. But since I've gone this far, I'll at least let the question go out. Does anyone envision a problem with my solution to adding support and again at least minimally sealing the holes into the bilge. The only thing I can think of, is that I might be taking weight that was originally intended to be dispersed around the perimeter of the cuddy floor to the hull edges and shifting some of that directly to the hull bottom, but it can't be much, and it would still be only a proportional amount since the hull/floor attachment is still there. Any thoughts on this?

[GreenLake]

Don't worry about loading the hull, as long as you don't use cut-off broomsticks as supports (those would be point loads).

To give you a point of comparison: In a DS 1 the removable floor boards rest on little "feet", distributing the load to, what 8-10 spots, each the size of a half-dollar coin. That's sufficient.

Make sure that you don't create spaces that won't drain. If you get water in the bilge, it needs to be able to get to whatever drain you have for that on a a DSII.

The easiest would be to take your battery boxes, wax them, and then use them as plugs to laminate a receptacle, which you then insert under the floor and laminate / glue in place.

If you like that idea, then:

1. tape some paint stir sticks to the sides of your battery box before you laminate it. Those will form "air channels" in the receptacle later, so you'll be able to get the battery box in/out later.
2. Or you could wrap the box tightly in some thin plastic foam for packing. That will serve as "spacer" and give a loose fit
3. Use a sheet of cardboard, with wax paper, and cut an opening just large enough that it comes to rest half-way down on the upturned battery box.
4. if you can match that level to the level where the floor will be, you can use it to laminate some horizontal tabs, which you can then use to glue the receptacle to the floor.
5. If you tape a piece of waxed" 1x2 across the bottom of the box, that will turn into a "foot" when you laminate - allowing any water in the bilge to flow around it.

What do you think? I think this would be quite simple, sturdy and effective and you'd get the floor to seal perfectly.

[GreenLake]

How about automotive carpet from some carpet remnant store, perhaps on top of some "hard" mat (plastic, not rubber) as used in some locker rooms.

Your comment above about "not using" rubber for flooring. Can you expand on your thinking about that please?

The usual rubber mats are pretty heavy. You really want to watch the weight you are adding to a DS, you'll have more fun sailing it.

The discussion centered around how to make the space both dry and nice(r). The mats are merely spacers to lift your stuff (or any carpet) out of small puddles of water that might have collected.

If you construct your battery box holders the right way, they can act as "sumps" collecting some of whatever water gets on your cuddy floor.

If you use a rubbery mat, then you may not need anything to cover it (if you find the surface comfortable for your needs) - otherwise, if you want to use carpet, then you don't really need anything that's soft.

Hope this clears up my thinking.

Keep it light!

[hectoretc]

It does clear it up... Thanks

Those things are heavy. I was suprised when I picked up the box. That makes a lot of sense.
OK... maybe they'll make some good garage mats. You can never have too many garage mats.

Thanks!

[hectoretc]

What do you think? I think this would be quite simple, sturdy and effective and you'd get the floor to seal perfectly.

I like it... alot!
Anticipating I was going to need to do a lot more fiberglass repairs than I've needed to do (so far) I purchased a "healthy quantity" of materials. (resin is so much cheaper in 55 gallon drums) so I do have a supply on hand to work it this way. Understanding theres going to be differences due to flow and my inexperience, but how thick should I "target" this box to be?

I'll have to read the package to find out what the temperature parameters are for fiberglass (before - during - and how long after).

I'll need to do this work somewhere other than in the house as my wife has already expressed her displeasure with the gentle wafting scent of fiberglass when I come inside covered head to toe with the fine powder after sanding or cutting. I have a garage heater but it takes a ton of propane to keep it going overnight etc.

[GreenLake]

Three layers of glass cloth/mat/cloth will be enough for an extremely sturdy insert. If you have really heavy cloth, two layers might be enough. In that case, cloth goes to the inside (the finished side).

The corners will lend this structure strength, so you don't need to try to make the walls so stiff that you can't flex them by pressing directly in the middle of a wall.

If the resin you bought is polyester, you'll have a huge issue with styrene smell and certainly I would not even have this in an attached garage, let alone a house. However, if you are using epoxy, the smell is limited.

For epoxy, you should have something like 65F or better, but a small box with a heat lamp is all you need for a project like this. No need to put it in the oven in the kitchen

The other reason I hope that your resin is epoxy is that it doesn't shrink on curing like polyester will...